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I understand your point countrymom. Grandparents have never been any part of my life and I downplay their importance. Am I afraid of becoming one? No. Just don't particularly relish it. But I wonder why you think it's not such a good idea for ConfuseD here to try for a baby when in fact I have read several of your posts stating that you will deliver at age 42 and then try AGAIN for another. I have absolutely no problem with you doing that of course...as I am 40 myself and due in Oct. But why do you have a problem with ConfuseD? What IS that cutoff? Then...WHY is that the cutoff? Just a respectful debate here!

I appreciate respectful debate so I don't personally consider this arguing. I will answer your questions but I request your reply as well. At what age does it become irresponsible and NOT in the best interest of a child to conceive them? I believe we must have a cutoff. I will have just turned 42 when I deliver. I will not be 50 or 51, the age ConfuseD will be if she were to deliver. That is minimally 8 years, possibly 9 years difference. I think you will be tempted to say to me, it's only 8 years?! And if I say 47 is my personal cutoff, then will you respond with "well then what is wrong with 49, it is only 2 years difference from your cutoff. What is two years, aren't you being hypocritical?!" This can keep going with every cutoff age I provide. When we have an 'anything goes' att_tude, meaning anything we want we try to achieve no matter who it hurts or impacts is ok, it becomes selfishness. Having a child should be less about what "I" want and what makes me feel good and happy and youthful and more about what is really in the best interest of a child. Also, I do not have other children. I believe ConfuseD with an having infant will be unable to provide full time mothering to her other children, who are deserving of a mother too. Children will find their own way without a mom there to watch over them, and this can be a very bad thing. If ConfuseD decides to move forward with the decision she is considering I'm sure she will find no lack of doctors to help her out. My cutoff is 43, which I did not conveniently establish with my recent pregnancy. I set that as a much younger woman. If I can't achieve a second pregnancy quickly after this one, I'll let it go. My reasons for my cutoff are as follows: Physically the vast majority of people do not have a level of fitness at 60 to care for a 10 year old fulltime. Also, how will a child feel to have a 60 year old mom when the other moms are so much younger. That may not be an issue for you but for a child, that could be a difficult pill to swallow. Health begins to decline with an increasing greater rate the older we get. I think you will say, "yes, well that can happen at 35." Yes, it can, but it is much less the norm than a 70 year old falling ill. Then when the child is trying to get his or her life together and figure out what they want to be and wanting to be excited about proms, and college, etc, they have their ailing mom at home to worry about. And will this put the youngest child still being in "the nest" into a position where they feel they can't have a life because they need to be there for mom, to help out ? At 50, the likelihood is greater for increased problems during pregnancy that could seriously impact the child's ability to live a full life--DS, cerebral palsy due to prematurity....Will the worst absolutely happen, can't say, but I would not want to take a chance just because I had a serious need at 49 to have another child. I have other reasons but I think this at least demonstrates the reasoning for my opinions.And, w\hy don't you relish grandparenting??? You apparently like children? What suddenly changes with being a grandparent? My grandparents were wonderful and I had all the more love in my life because of them.

Countrymom, I do not relish grandparenting. It's quite simple. My own grandmother was mean and quite cruel. I had no other grandparents growing up and frankly don't see much use for them. Just my opinion of course:) If you read the earlier threads on this topic...you might note that while statistics do have some relevance, they most a__suredly cannot be a__sumed as ultimate truth. Many times a child will lose a parent well before "ripe old age" as what has happened to myself losing my dad when he was 52. I was only 18....and also what has recently happened to to my dd who lost her dad just this year. He was 48...she was 20. There ARE no guarentees in life. In addition....while I myself do not relish grandparenting....I can honestly say I know many kids who have been raised by their grandparents who are perfectly well-adjusted, as well as kids born to parents who were even older than ConfuseD. Thus, I see no issues with older "grandparent-aged" adults raising kids.. So...your question is...do I draw a line? Sure. Biology does that for us......it's called Menopause. There's a reason for menopause happening when it does. Different women will, of course, have differing Reproductive life cycles...but perhaps that's nature's way of ensuring survival of the fittest. You might then argue that I would therefore be excluding those young, healthy people of childbearing age who are unable to conceive based on the reason I just gave. My answer to that is the following: Adoption. Many kids on this earth have no home....what a better way to address this problem then for these kids to go to homes provided by people who otherwise would not biologically be able to have their own children...this goes for those with primary and seconday infertility as well as gay couples who wish to raise a child.

Countrymom, I do not relish grandparenting. It's quite simple. My own grandmother was mean and quite cruel. I had no other grandparents growing up and frankly don't see much use for them. Just my opinion of course:) If you read the earlier threads on this topic...you might note that while statistics do have some relevance, they most a__suredly cannot be a__sumed as ultimate truth. Many times a child will lose a parent well before "ripe old age" as what has happened to myself losing my dad when he was 52. I was only 18....and also what has recently happened to to my dd who lost her dad just this year. He was 48...she was 20. There ARE no guarentees in life. In addition....while I myself do not relish grandparenting....I can honestly say I know many kids who have been raised by their grandparents who are perfectly well-adjusted, as well as kids born to parents who were even older than ConfuseD. Thus, I see no issues with older "grandparent-aged" adults raising kids.. So...your question is...do I draw a line? Sure. Biology does that for us......it's called Menopause. There's a reason for menopause happening when it does. Different women will, of course, have differing Reproductive life cycles...but perhaps that's nature's way of ensuring survival of the fittest. You might then argue that I would therefore be excluding those young, healthy people of childbearing age who are unable to conceive based on the reason I just gave. My answer to that is the following: Adoption. Many kids on this earth have no home....what a better way to address this problem then for these kids to go to homes provided by people who otherwise would not biologically be able to have their own children...this goes for those with primary and seconday infertility as well as gay couples who wish to raise a child

countrymom, while I thank you for your reply and understand what you're saying, I don't fully agree. The more I read the responses to my question, in addition to reflecting upon responses to similar posts, the more I feel that while risks exist, it's not the same for everyone. When I learned I was pregnant (with my fifth child) at age 47, my husband and I FREAKED at the risks the doctors gave us (primarily by the first OB/GYN unit we went to...a unit that did a blood test to confirm my pregnancy, but never bothered to do an initial exam - and wouldn't schedule one until nearly a month later), and can honestly say THAT was THE biggest stress in the pregnancy. To this day it casts a shadow overhead to think about it, and we feel strongly what was given to us as "information" was a thinly-guised attempt to get us to abort the pregnancy. Let me tell you with full confidence, if you were given information in that manner every time you went to buy a car, NOBODY would drive - EVER!!! I'm also 100% certain that the biggest risk to ANY pregnant woman IS driving a car. Yet how many pregnant women continue to drive? Do they drive the "safest" car? Anyway, it was the women on this board (in addition to very laid-back, and very learned, midwives) that helped calm us down, and kept us from acting out of fear (thank the Lord Jesus!!!). Though I'm now two years older, I would be seeing either the same OB/GYN unit, or a different specialist who would closely monitor my pregnancy...IF I got pregnant. The other thing I felt from your reply was that a few incorrect a__sumptions were made. I DO focus on the children I already have (though the four from my first marriage are adults, not all of which live at home), and am VERY thankful for them. Potentially having another child doesn't mean they'd be loved any less. May I also ask why it was a__sumed that I'm afraid of being a grandmother? I didn't say anything about not wanting to be a grandparent (though wanting my children to be married when they become parents, is important to me). As for the remark about a parent being 60 or 70 (or possibly older)when the child is still a minor...well, think of how many grandparents take care of their grandchildren on a regular (if not daily) basis, and it's pretty obvious grandma and grandpa can "keep up". Not only that, but if any of my children was ashamed of me because I was older than their friends' parents, THAT would be concerning. I've tried to discourage such thinking with all my children. Remember being a kid, though, and recall that kids get embarrased by their parents all the time, and it has nothing to do with age.

docbytch, your responses are wonderful (I've read them on other threads, too)!! I'm sorry your experiences with your grandmother weren't good. The ones I had with my paternal grandmother were, though (I don't have but a couple of very brief, but pleasant, moments with my maternal grandmother, because everyone in my mother's family is from outside the U.S.). My paternal grandmother helped raise me after my mother left my father, and stood steadfast by me (to the extent that she became my legal guardian) after my father pa__sed away at age 58 (from acute emphysema...smoking didn't help). She was in her 70's when she took care of me.

ConfuseD...thanks. Sometimes it seems my posts may be a bit blunt.. But when I see what look to me to be hypocritical ideas or suggestions it cannot be helped. It seems to me that countrymom meant well in her suggestion to you...but given her own age and vested interests in childbirth during one's 40s? Her suggestions to you rubbed me wrong. It is hard for me to tell other adults "what's okay for me is not okay for you" To many young moms...countrymom would be considered too old to be having kids...and for that matter...so am I. I responded to their comments also of course as you read previously. I was kind of dumbfounded to see CM's original response to you in suggesting somehow that you would be better served as a grandmother... As if the 6-7 yrs that separate her from you in age makes for the difference between grandmother and mother?? C'mon. Preferably I would like to see women be more supportive of each other's decisions to have children...regardless of age. My only caveat is that if you are going to have a child (this applies to everyone)...have the ability to support that child emotionally, financially, and psychologically. Meet the child's basic needs. Sad..but for some...that's a tall order! It is for people like that I would perhaps suggest that having a child may not be the best idea until they get themselves a little more together...whatever that requires. I also think that having older kids does not make for a poor situation to bring a baby into. My dd is now 21 and she is actually pretty stoked about her coming baby brother. I think you would make a fine parent and since you are one of those blessed with the ability to conceive naturally at a somewhat later age than others....survival of the fittest is in your favor! I know I will be a good mom at this age too...in some ways better than before. But I am old-school in many ways...some people have issue with that. Frankly? I think it's better for kids. It's been better for my dd who is gainfully employed in the armed services in our USCG. I am very proud of her.

ConfusedD, My comment regarding fearing grandparenthood was directed to Docbytch. In respect to grandparents raising children, these are in many cases individuals rising to the occa__sion and taking care of children who were abandoned by their parents or who are so messed up they can't care for the children they bore. I can't say for sure, but I would bet the trend of grandparents raising children is not due to the death of the parent. So are they doing it, sure, is it ideal...no and not a great example for supporting older parenthood. Docbytch, egg quality begins to decline after 35, so in fact nature is saying start winding it up! Pregnancy occurs in later years but nature also makes more mistakes in the form of increased m/c and various chromosonal issues, again another hint to wrap it up. And yes I do think that 6-7 years is significant enough to support my opinions. I get the sense you skimmed my responses to you rather than reading it. You answered exactly as I indicated you would, "what's six or seven years was your response." If it were 10 years you would have likely responded the same way. It is minimally seven years difference between myself and ConfuseD but potentially more if she pursues her goal. Anyway, in response to adoption by gay couples etc., it's not the ideal either. You seem to be okay with situations that are not ideal for the child. Maybe because those raising you had an anything goes att_tude where your care was concerned. I'm reading into your responses but it's hard not to extrapolate and see that what occurred in your younger years has had a profound impact on you. I am surprised actually that you do not have a more hard line approach (you would say that's judgmental) to many of the posts I see on this site. I say lets protect children even if it means that we can't have things our way. There are plenty of hetereos_xual couples waiting years to adopt and until every hetereos_xual couple who wants a child gets one quickly, there is no reason to put children into situations that are not ideal, i.e. gay couples, etc. And statistics are what makes the medicine you provide meet the needs of the general patient population. Evidence based medicine is by its very nature dependent on statistics and the number of people who respond to a particular type of care. You MAY NOT like statistics because you were dealt some heavy b__ws but you simply can't argue with math. Docbytch, do you still keep in touch with your mother? Are you friendly with her? I'm tired now so this post probably could be tied up a bit better but I didn't want to let it go longer. Busy trying to get the registry set up.

No Countrymom. I am NOT okay with situations that are not in the best interest of the child. I merely do not share YOUR opinion that gay parents, are somehow less suited to raising children than straight parents. FYI... I am also not a Christian, which frees me from much of the dogma taught by the Christian Bible regarding issues such as homos_xuality. Tried Christianity as a younger person and thought it WAY too judgmental and sanctimonious for my taste. My guess is that you are Christian, as I have seen several religious-sounding references in your posts. Not all aspects of it are bad of course...but I lost my belief in organized religion a long time ago. I also do not think parents of the age range ConfuseD is in are less suited than younger parents. Again, if a woman is biologically capable of producing viable offspring (who get to ride the big yellow schoolbus mind you...not the short bus) as ConfuseD appears to be capable of.....good for her. Nature hasn't drawn that line yet clearly in her case.. You seem to be making a__sumptions about how I was raised...as if "anything goes" to quote your post--applied to my parents. My family has similar problems to every other family with kids growing up in the 1970s. My parents divorced when I was very young. In Southern California, most families were in a similar predicament. However, I do believe growing up there has made me more liberal on issues such as Gay parenting, abortion, family values. I am quite comfortable in my belief system and it is unfair for you to a__sume my belief system is somehow "warped" because I've been scarred for life by some earlier deed. This is how your post read anyway. Am I close to my mother? No. Did she pull some major shenanigans on me in my younger years? Yes...and for most people....they'd be pretty unforgivable. Would I EVER think it's okay for a parent to pull some of those very same things on their own child? Hell no! Never in a million years. But I recognize that kids all over the world can thrive in a variety of situations that may seem, in your mind, as less than ideal. I do not believe the only way to raise successful and happy children is by providing some American ideal of a suburban picture-perfect pipe-dream with mom, dad, 2.2 kids, the dog, and some white picket fence. Some of the best parents I have ever known were poor, struggling, busting their a__ses at some job which underappreciated them, and yet still able to love and teach their children about the things in life that matter. I don't believe a child has to have every freaking single material comfort to be happy. What they need are parents who love them, and provide good role models. That means if you are a parent who works outside the home? Great! You are teaching your children the value of working for what you want. I DID respect my mom for that at least.

countrymom- i am in complete agreeance with you. ( sp?) i am not going to state my argument on why i believe that having another child into your 50's is a bad idea, as i do not feel like repeating myself. but, every single thing you said is everything i think. you have a bettter way of stating it then i do. and you are right, just because we are not here saying.. yeah great idea!!,,, doesnt mean we cant post our opinions. i think it is very selfish tohave more children when myou have adult children who its basically their turns to do the reproducing. at some point, you just gotta pa__s the baton.

This will be last post on this as it is getting too long and off the topic. Others may have the last word. Docbytch, I had to laugh when I read your reply. Actually, I am an atheist and also free from the dogma you speak of. Although, I am not obnoxious or pushy about it with Christians. I am, however, always concerned about doing what is in the best interest of children and MOST DEFINITELY don't share your opinion about what is in the best interest of children. I agree with you, children do thrive despite being put in less than ideal situations but WHY PUT THEM THERE if there is another option?! I used to be quite liberal (from the other coast) but as I matured I developed more traditional values which I think raises more well-adjusted, decent children. E.g. Children not knocked up at 16 and again at 19 with multiple abortions to their name and living with their boyfriends at 20 etc., working at the burger mart. Further, I don't see children raised in gay families being able to provide the socializing opportunities that a home with a man and woman would provide. You can deny it, but pick up any 101 Psych book and it will support my belief. I can't see how a child raised by two men or two women provides the good role model environment you felt was important. The opportunities are far more limited for a child in a gay home to see the manner in which both s_xes operate in intimate relationships and I don't mean s_x here. This WILL have effects in the child's personal relationships as they mature. Also, I do NOT believe it is necessary to give children all the things that only money can buy. I surely wasn't raised that way and turned out fine. As far as working, I will not be working when my child is born because I want to raise that child MYSELF and not schelp (sp?) them off to some daycare center to be raised by people probably Christian and who are shacked up with their boyfriend. Parents working at jobs that as you say "bust their a__ses and are underappreciated as well...well how does one respect that? I would personally respect a parent who had a job like this and said, I can do better for myself and my family let me see how to improve my lot. Now that I can respect but not just accepting mediocrity, nope! As I am an American, I also have no problem with the American ideal you imaged. I don't think it is only the way to raise children but also it is not a bad way either. I was hoping you weren't close to your mother because it troubled me that she put you in a situation that was way less than ideal, with a man who you indicated molested you and then around the same time she threw you out. I'm sorry this happened to you. To the point in your reply, however, I'm pretty sure that this is NOT the “similar predicament” other children are raised into, and if so, I fully admit I am way out of touch and probably should just stick to speaking about the weather. This post has gone way off the topic of a 50 year old woman giving birth. I still think it’s not in the best interest of the child but that’s JMO. ConfuseD, I don’t know you but I get the sense you will do what will make YOU happy in the end and rest a__sured, I’m sure you will find plenty of doctors who will help you.

I would like to say something. My father is 86 going on 87 this August 30th. I am 21 years old. Yeah my mom was a gold digger. haha. but anyways, my father is the best man I have ever met. He is my hero and the one man I have always looked up to. He has always been there for me and didnt have a problem keeping up with me and my brother. He was still working on car engines at the age of 84. That is a true accomplishment. He was 65 at the time I was born. And I could not wish for a better parent. HOWEVER!!!!! All my life, I have wondered, Will my dad be here next year. I remember being 7 8 9 10 and praying to God that my daddy would be around to watch me graduate from highschool, to see me get married, to see his grandchildren. It was always incredibly hard to see him when he got sick due to age. My dad had 5 heart attacks. And When my mom left when I was 15 I was the one who found my dad pa__sed out and had to call the ambulance. Having an older parent can be a good thing but also a bad. It is so hard to grow up praying the you are going to see your daddy the next year. I am not going to say that you should not have a child. Because again, my dad even at his age was the best parent and anyone would be fortunate to have a man like him in their lives but It is scary for the child. Not to mention I used to get taunted by the kids at school. haha. I am just giving a little insight to how the child is going to feel and while yes pray to God you are as fortunate as my dad was to be able to keep up with your babies, what if you cant? At the age of 17 I had to watch my dad get rolled into a nursing home because the dementia and his health declined so rapidly. I always try to avoid thinking about this because it always makes me cry. Even more so in my pregnant state. But like Jess said, you may be healthy now but someday and no one has control over when it happens but someday, every one declines (sobbing now) And if you decide to have another I pray to God that he lets you keep up. But it was so hard to watch my daddy go down. and even harder that it seemed to happen over night. OK I have to stop because I can barely see to type. And this is getting to emotional for me right now. haha.

Closing comment to countrymom: There is no one way that can most a__suredly guarantee itself to be "whats in the best interest of children" I do recognize this. This is where my viewpoints stem. I have seen evidence to back my views up. That's all. Good luck to everyone.

Jennifer...I am very sorry for what you witnessed happening to your father. It is very painful to watch your parent wither away and die before your very eyes. I know the pain you feel as well, although my dad was much younger...only 52 when he died. It's been 22 yrs and it still hurts! Now my dd has to endure the same legacy. It totally sucks! Oh..CM..sorry if I a__sumed you were christian....usually it's christians I hear mentioning phrases such as "traditional moral values" my mistake.

I'm a dork. CM: From one of my other posts...whats in the best interest of kids is, to quote "if you are going to have a child (this applies to everyone)...have the ability to support that child emotionally, financially, and psychologically. Meet the child's basic needs." That's the only way I can sum it up. Again, gay parents are not an issue , in my estimation. I have known many well-adjusted people raised by gay parents. Ok done now! sorry

Once again, I didn't mean to start a holy war by asking my question. It appears, though, there will always be hugely differing opinions on this one. I can understand, and agree with, some of what's being said, yet disagree with other things, too. For instance, going back to something CM said earlier...while there are grandchildren being raised by their grandparents because the parents have "issues", that's not the only, or usual, scenario I've seen. Typically, it's that both parents work outside the home. Neither the parents nor the grandparents want the children in daycare (not to mention it saves money, though I know of some grandparents who are paid). Also, about my adult children having "their turn" at having kids. I don't mind my children having their own kids, but as said before, I would want them to be married when they start having families. But, let me ask you a question. I understand that most people have only a couple of children these days. When I was younger (and well before then), large families were common...I'm talking a good 6, 7, 10, or more children. That would, most likely, mean mom would be having kids when at least one of her grown children was having babies, too. Why would she be "taking away" from the happiness of one of her own children? It makes no sense to me. It should be double happiness, and shared happiness. That's like saying if you're a single parent, either through death or divorce, and any children you have are grown up and getting married, it would be selfish if you got (re)married, too, because it's now your "children's turn". I'm not in compet_tion with my children, nor am I trying to be. If I didn't know better, it seems more so that age discrimination is at work here. I feel as though I'm reading something that says, "Okay, you raised your kids into adulthood. Don't think about doing anything other than becoming a grandma, and certainly don't think of doing anything that 'young' people do." I don't dissect everything I do and a___lyze it to see if it's something that a younger vs. older person would do. If I feel able to do it, I do it. It's the same with things that might be considered "man" stuff. If I can lift up a heavy object by myself, I'm not going to call my husband over to do it just because he happens to be a man. While it's true that I have no way of knowing what sort of condition I'll be in 10 years (or if I'll even be alive), the same could be said for ANYBODY. You have no idea of how many times I've heard of, or read of, local people dying at young ages and leaving behind little children. Before you a__sume it's all due to accidents, sometimes their tragic deaths are due to illnesses (especially cancer).