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Thank you Fabienne. That site is very informative and I hope others will take the time to read it as well.

but it shouldn't be your only resource. Do look at some other sites so yoou can get different views and then make a well informed descion of your own.

Here is another at the AAP site: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/112/6/1394

http://www.909shot.com/

maybe someone should have told me that yesterday (to relax) but like you when it comes to the well being of the little one I find the general public too dependant on BS from others the media , lies from physicians etc ... people need to make more informed decisions because laws and protocol should not be overwhelming and sucking people into doing things to their children they would otherwise not if better informed . No hard feelings ! your best friend CMJ

I agree, people do have too much blind faith in what "the authorities" tell them, and don't question often enough. Reminds me of a book I read by British comedian Ben Elton. In one part he talks of peoples' reliance on a mysterious "they" who are responsible for making sure the general public are never exposed to anything bad for them. I don't know exactly who "they" are supposed to be, same as "the authorities" I guess. He quoted such sayings as, "Surely "they" wouldn't let it be sold on our shelves if it was really harmful" and "they" always make sure these things are tested properly before the public is exposed, don't they?" And, my alltime favourite, "they" have our best interests at heart, "they" wouldn't let us come to any harm." LOL! As if! Sorry for such a long post, just thought I'd share that with you before "they" come and take me away for knowing too much about "them." AGGGGHHHH!!!!HELP!!!!!

We are watching you! lol I am only kidding don't get even more paranoid on us! :)

CMJ... I'm relaxed. Now come up with some real science to counter the "authorities" and I'm all ears. Till then you'll pardon me if I don't buy some crack science - "activist BS enhanced* sensationalist disinformation.... show me the money!

BBK ® ©, Theres no question that some vaccines have been harmful to the recipients or there would be no need for VAERS. http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2005/NEW01238.html http://vaers.hhs.gov/info.htm

"Not CMJ", agreed, and I also think the crack activists have a place to keep manufacturers and govenment honest. Vaccines can have bad reactions and downsides and I personally think we'll regret this influenza vaccination in a few years. All of the above however doesn't mean that it's a free pa__s to make bogus claims about vaccine safety. It's not all or nothing or black and white, and I see more BS and sensationalism coming from the anti-vaccine crowd. They would have more credibility if they had some real substance behind the claims, like clinical double-blind peer review studies, not media reports and opinions. Problem is, every time a scientific study has been conducted the results were not in their favor

So your objection to people who would say negative things about vaccines is that they are all crack activists? That doesn't sound very open minded to the fact that some of what they have said is true. In fact to label all of the people who might have reservations about vaccines, except for the vaccines you believe are not beneficial, a crack activist seems very one sided. Furthermore, I don't think "crack activist" should have to keep drug companies and the government honest. Both should be doing that because it's the right thing to do, especially in light of the fact that most people will never even give vaccines a second thought UNTIL their child has an adverse reaction. Then they scream why weren't we informed. Not that I agree with CMJ's methods or even that given the way he presented them that people would even care to listen, but it seems that most people here think some one else is calling them a bad parent if they do or don't do any number of things. I believe that even the "crack activists" should be given an opportunity to express what they believe with out all the hostility.

"Not CMJ" You make a good point and please don't take what I say as a personal attack to you or anyone else. I don't agree with the hostility or personal attacks. Anyone that has *valid* information should speak out. We can argue what should or should not be forever, but what counts is "what is". Anyway my objection is to people who make dangerous claims such as "vaccines are not needed" or they are all unsafe and they base those claims on crack science, therefore they are crack activists. It's one thing to want to keep drugs safe, it is another to say that all vaccines are unsafe and not needed. If you do, you should clarify that you're stating opinion, or back it up with research; Otherwise you'd not be acting responsibly. By the same token your physician should be the one responsible to verify your child's ability to process the vaccine, test for alergies and do his or her best to ensure the child's health.

Narcissus there is a lot of confusion between philosophy and science out there. I used to always argue with some vegetarian friends of mine because they believed that a vegeterian could help them live longer and healthier. They attempted to back it up with lots of crack science like "our digestive systems are designed for non meat food only". Some hardcore vegans even argued that cooking the food destroys its nutritional value. Little did they know that the human digestive tract cannot even break through most of the raw vegetables' fiber to get to those nutrients. There is even a sect called "macrobiotic" that beleives that their diet can cure anything and they can live loooong lives. Well real world data came to light and none of the above people were right. It actually showed that vegetarians had the same disease rates and slightly shorter lifespans.

Yes, it all depends on how resourceful one is, and where they choose to look for answers to their questions. Also, unless you have a trained eye to read a scientific journal article, they can be very intimidating. The press misquotes science often. They are no more trained in a___lyzing a study than the average joe yet they report the findings to the public and the article is often incorrect. So, what do we get from bad journalism? We have people who think that eating chocolate while you are pregnant will make you have a happy baby! If they only knew what a shabby study that was, and it was only reported bc the ma__ses would enjoy the results. I think the public is always looking for "proof" these days, and health scientists don't use that word. Like I said in another thread, proofs rarely exist in the world of health science. ---Not CMJ, I agree that there is a place in this world for acitvists, but it would be nice if they backed their claims up with hard data from reliable sources. While I have met some data fudging scientists from a prestigous university where nobody would ever suspect that of them and they ALWAYS have funding (Lots of editor in chiefs for major journals), I have also known some activists that get their information from who? The media:)

I don't have a degree in medicine nor am I researcher, but it takes me being either to know that injecting some one with known toxins is harmful. I don't think it makes me "crack activist" either. I don't know about you but if some asked me could they inject me or my child with something containing formaldehyde, I might be inclined to say no based on what I remember from high school science cla__s. If I were to take it a step further and actually look up formaldehyde, I might be inclined to object vehemently. But then thats just me. http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/gen/additives.htm#Facts

Then "not CMJ" you may be disheartended to know that Formaldehyde is all around us....in fact that crib you may have bought or the cabinets in your kitchen or even even textiles and insulation. It can be harmful depending on quant_ty but the one in the vaccines is a drop in the formaldehyde bucket. Stopping your child from receiving a vaccine because of it is short sighted, unless of course you have taken all the other steps to clean up your indoor air and always steer clear from tobacco smokers etc. Yup formaldehyde is bad, it's everywhere, but it's not anywhere near as bad as say....pneumococcal meningitis.